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"Israel has to be called out, you can't just walk onto some land, start killing the indigenous population, forcing them to live in tiny pockets, while you make up a new country, set your own laws, and put up borders as if it's all yours and no one else can come in"
The USA:
@selzero The Angles and Saxons would never do such a thing.
@selzero um, just like early american settlers, followed by the US government?
How shall we change how America has treated indigenous tribes as illuminated by your statement?
@gfjacobs exactly the point of my post :)
@selzero not to mention that the people about whom you wrote that are NOT indigenous. They are Arabs whom the other arab countries MADE into refugees for 65 years after they tried to kill the state of Israel in its infancy.
@selzero and have dedicated themselves to destroying Israel and killing all jews therein.
Somebody threatens you, then invades, rapes and kills your people.
What are you gonna do?
@gfjacobs even if you give me a million dollars I'm not going to claim the answer is "massacre thousands of innocent people".
@selzero so on that point we agree
So why are you not outraged by the murder that precipitated it?
*<perplexed>*
Of course I am!! Where did you get that I am not?
But the second one is ONGOING and we are powerless to stop it, and OUR GOVERNMENTS ARE BACKING IT MAKING US COMPLICIT IN MASS MURDER. That's where the major frustration is coming from.
@selzero i did miss this one, and I wanted to acknowledge it.
I recognize that you are not being one sided about it, but it's clear to me (not how I feel, mind you) that the only way around this is through, and the only sad way through depends on what the Netanyahu government does, and I cannot say that this inspires any hope.
Only if we presume that the colonial mindset of the West that it deserves.to take over lands from indigenous populations is a just one.
Because whatever the narrative you choose to follow, the status in Palestine is effectively a white washing / gentrification of a corner of the Middle East. As long as that exists as a goal, friction will also always exist.
@selzero if you invoke history, you are bound by its lessons.
You cannot pick and choose what you want.
You lose me when you apply gentrification to my argument.
Applying russian nationality to nut-and-yahoo instead of Jewish Israeli national shows a type of anti-semitic reverse loyalty argument that is really offensive when you apply it to him as a westerner doing a land takeover of "indigenous" people who truly are not
I know that is likely not your intent, but it is how it comes out.
Well yes.
It's horrible.
But that is what is happening.
Netenyahu most probably has zero ethnic link to the area at all. He is ethnically Russian.
Religion and ethnicity are not the same thing.
@selzero he ws born in Tel Aviv.
He is "indigenous"
Ok so Donald Trump is also indigenous in your opinion?
I would like an answer. If you believe Netenyahu is indigenous, is Donald Trump also indigenous.
@gfjacobs I just saw that you think Trump is a native American 
@selzero yes, as a hemorrhoid is indigenous to an anus
What the fuck did I just read? Wild takes. Wild!
I'm white enough that I burn in the shade. My ancestors have been on this continent since before the British took over New Amsterdam (now called New York). In no way am I indigenous to this land. My family has been here longer than Trump's, and we're definitely not indigenous.
By this guy's logic, I am legally entitled to go claim, by force, farmland in upstate NY, Canada, and the historical territory of North Dakota.
The only way around this is... through??
What is that supposed to mean?
"This" is genocide and ethnic cleansing. If we don't stop it, the only way is THROUGH the bodies of thousands and thousands more civilians.
And that's not a way "out" of a damn thing. The only place that gets us, is a nightmare future flooded with rivers of blood-- because the war profiteers glutting themselves on this and getting away with it WILL NOT STOP with the Palestinians.
It sounds like there is a certain number of dead children they have to achieve which would mean no one is going to be an angry liberation fighter in the future 
Erm.
No.
Palestinians are indigenous.
Netanyahu is not indigenous to that area. He is Russian.
You are beginning to sound like the crazies that come on here claiming that Europeans were in North America before the native Americans.
@selzero they are as indigenous as any tribal, nomadic people.
There have never been a palestinian 'nation' or race.
I do not believe that justifies Israel murdering back, and i have been respectful and am making a reasoned argument, so please do not call me crazy.
Please be respectful back.
@selzero meanwhile a Jewish claim on the land is biblically justified, to whatever extent one might believe that the Bible is literal truth.
Being thrown into a diaspora because of centuries of others determined to kill you and your people, and reclaiming land that was promised by God is a justification as powerful as you saying well, they were living there and that makes them indigenous, so by what right do you displace them?
In that context, your argument cannot stand, either.
@gfjacobs Biblically justified claim on land 
In the same way slavery was justified by the curse of Ham?
The same way the Spanish inquisitions were justified?
You know what we call the period we allowed everything to be "Biblically justified"?
The dark ages.
@selzero @gfjacobs you know why the Arabs claim #Israël. Because some profet went to heaven there #al-aksa
Which by the way first isnt true because there is no heaven
But secondly the place where this supposedly should have happend is not described in the koran. But the Arabs somehow were sure it was where the most holy israelian Temple was.
#IsraelHamasWar
@forthy42 @hanscees @selzero the whole argument that the Palestinians are indigenous and have a right to the gaza strip as their state, and have the right to wage war with impunity, no consequences is unreasonable, and is not supported by the history.
Otoh, that they are humans, deserving of life and a place to make a PEACEFUL home, is NEVER up for debate.
The gut-wrenching truth is the reality with which we are all living.
@selzero so you're saying if I write a fanfic in which I declare myself the almighty king and ruler of everything and that I must be given all chimkn nuggets for free forever, I can go to mcdolans and get free stuff? Asking for a friend
摏 @gfjacobs @selzero There were two large groups of People from Levant which faced grave conflicts with the Roman empire. One, the far more powerful, were completely eradicated (the Phoenicians in the third public war; they had moved to North Africa on their own before), one was displaced partly (by Vespasian) and the remainders eradicated later by Hadrian.
Certainly, everyone who paid tribute to Hadrian by recognizing him as God was spared. Those people we call “palestinians”.
@gfjacobs @selzero According to the Bible, the people of Israel wasn't quite that indigenous to Levant (they came out of Egypt), and invaded Palestine in a genocidal war. Yes, there's also a claim that they came to Egypt from Levant hundreds of years earlier, but mostly by free will. Only one of them was sold as slave by his brothers.
Guys none of this is relevant.
The Palestinian people at one stage would have been Jewish, at one stage Christian, at one stage Zoroastrian.
The debate you are having is clouded with a 200 year old identity politics version of religion.
History isn't like that. Religion "spreads"
The same Palestinian people that are Muslims today are the same that were Jewish centuries ago.
They are the people of that region.
@selzero @forthy42 point is the "indigenous" argument does not play, dawg.
Humanity, sure.
People deserve to be able to live in peace.
Nobody there has been able to do so because Hamas has been committed to genocide against Israel and the jews for their entire existence.
It's "why we can't have nice things"
Isn't this God you speak of the very same God worshiped by all Abrahamic religions? Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Zionism is a 127 year old European ideology in response to European antisemitism.
The Palestinian's are genetically closer to the historic holy land than any of the European settlers.
Not forgetting neither Christianity or Islam existed at the time the Old Testament was created.
Well said.
Jesus, if one believes a person existed as described, was a Palestinian Jewish reformer.
@stationkeeper @gfjacobs @selzero
Indeed. Jesus, the Jewish Palestinian socialist and peacemaker from a refugee family who was crucified after threatening the establishment by preaching the gospel of love and peace for all living things.
@gfjacobs Because the Ottoman empire was there for hundreds of years being the legal entity.
This does not nullify their status as indigenous.
Indigenous does not mean you need to have a legally structured internationally recognized state.
Do you believe the Aboriginies are not the indigenous people of Australia?
How is what is being done to the Palestinians not worse than what is being done to the Aboriginies?
@selzero that word does not mean what you think it means.
Native to and inhabiting a place before colonists come in
To be indigenous they would have to have existed before the jewish people ended their desert travels of 40 years and conquered the land
These folks were nomadic, and stranded by their Arab cousins when they decided to push the jews of the nascent reborn jewish state into the sea
That remains Hamas' mantra to this day and that genocidal attitude is enshrined in their charter